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Building a Culture of Integrity with Rob Chestnut, former Airbnb Chief Ethics Officer
Intro Music
Tyler Finn
What role does integrity need to play in your company's culture? How can legal teams and corporate leaders foster it? And where do you get started if you want to write a book on it?
Today we are joined on the abstract by Rob Chestnut, author of Intentional Integrity, How Smart Companies Can Lead an Ethical Revolution. Rob has a little bit of a leg to stand on here. he was previously the chief ethics officer and before that, the general counsel of Airbnb, where he grew the legal team from 30 to over 150 legal professionals all around the globe.
He was also the first legal hire and general counsel at Chegg, where he helped lead them through their IPO. And earlier in his career, he was the third legal hire at and leader leader of eBay's North American legal team, where he founded their trust and safety org.
Earlier in his career, Rob was in a USA in the Eastern District of Virginia. And this is pretty interesting. I don't know if you've been asked about this on many podcasts, where he handled the prosecution of ah folks in the intelligence community around espionage, including Aldrich Ames. Rob, thanks so much for joining me for this episode of The Abstract.
Robert Chesnut
Thank you, Tyler. Thanks for having me.
Tyler Finn
um Okay, I mean, let's let's actually go back to like that time when you were working at DOJ and and in the, you know, in the the Eastern District's Office of DOJ, um prosecuting some of these espionage cases.
Tyler Finn
I mean, that seems to me like a fast track to being general counsel of the FBI or CIA or NSA or something like that. um Why did you decide to transition to the Bay Area at a certain point and and and make that move into
Robert Chesnut
being a prosecutor hard work emotionally. It's your, the people that you prosecute are going away for the rest of their life.
Tyler Finn
Sure.
Robert Chesnut
You see the families in the courtroom. It's sad. And yeah it's important work.
Tyler Finn
here Wow.
Robert Chesnut
But after a while, you know, I did over a hundred bank robberies and drug dealers and armored car robbers and all that as well as the espionage.
Robert Chesnut
It's just, And I think it wears on you a little emotionally. well You want to do something positive. You want to feel as though you're not sort of coming in at the very end ah ah of a troubled life.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
You want to feel like you're bringing people's lives up and helping. So I always liked business. and and always like I was the kind of person that walked into a store and wondered why they had a display day and Why do they price things this way? So I thought that business was a really great opportunity to have a positive impact on a lot of different people's lives and therefore decided i was going to try to make the transition from being a prosecutor to go to the business world. You know, the but problem I found when I started shopping my resume around is that the businesses looked at me and said, hey, Rob, you're a really good prosecutor, but we don't prosecute people here and it It definitely took a little selling, a little creativity to help um show how I could bring value to a business environment.
Tyler Finn
And you mean you were early at eBay. ah Where was eBay in its journey when you when you joined? And um how much did it grow while you were there?
Robert Chesnut
Yeah. Well, I was employee 170, and there were 50,000 when I left.
Tyler Finn
oh wow. Wow.
Robert Chesnut
So it grew like crazy. We were on, i remember when I started, we were in one building on like two and a half floors of one building.
Tyler Finn
Uh-huh.
Robert Chesnut
It was small group of folks, but it was fun. It was, yeah we were changing the world. and
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Robert Chesnut
And doing it in a positive way. and I felt like I was you know enabling commerce um you know among strangers, helping connect across the world or around common passions.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
It was exactly what I was looking for when i was a federal prosecutor and feeling like I wasn't doing anything positive.
Tyler Finn
You ended up, as i as I mentioned in the intro, standing up the trust and safety function there and and running that. I mean, number one, doesn't sound like there were a whole, there wasn't a whole lot of that happening at tech companies yet at the time. Like you were standing up one of the sort of first trust and safety orgs that was out there.
yeah I'm wondering what you drew on to to think about sort of like what are our principles? How are we going to design this? How are we going to build this culture of compliance or trust into the org? Yeah, I mean, let's start there. I'm really curious about that. I mean, that's really building something, right?
Robert Chesnut
The word trust and safety, we we actually, there were three of us sitting in a room and we came up with the phrase trust and safety is the name of the department. So I think this whole um this whole world of trust and safety that all the companies have now, I think it started with three of us in a room at eBay in the early days. And you're right. you know When Meg Whitman came to me and asked me to do it, you I looked at her and said, well, I'm a lawyer. yeah Yeah, but I think lu you can figure it out and we'll give you ah we'll give you the people you need and we'll give you an unlimited budget, in which i which i then perceived.
Tyler Finn
That's pretty good.
Robert Chesnut
ah And I think what I learned early on was that trust and safety is a math problem. It's about ah gathering all the data about all the transactions. And ah defining the good ones and the bad ones. and We're going to take all the good trends actually put them in this pile. We're going to take all the ones that went wrong for what reasons, and we're going to code the different reasons. And then we're going to how do the good ones look different than the bad ones.
Tyler Finn
Right.
Robert Chesnut
And then we're going to build models to help us recognize those patterns and then iterate on the models. And so it was ah it was a fascinating learning experience, really, for me, because I wasn't a math person. But what I was able to do was I was able to draw on an incredible pool of talent at eBay.
Tyler Finn
Right.
Robert Chesnut
ah There were a lot of really smart people. And we built a great team of data analytics folks and people that really just enjoyed working an open kind of creative environment. We were we were the first ones building something. you know they were There were no third-party companies that offered tools. We had to build our own. And that was a great it was a great environment to work
Tyler Finn
Was there a point in time at eBay where you started to think, hey, I'd love to be a GC of a company someday, or this is going to be an important step for me in my career? Or do you feel like that happened more organically? Yeah.
Robert Chesnut
I thought I might want to look whenever you're a lawyer, Everybody kind of looks at the career path. So you either want to be a partner or you want be a general counsel.
Tyler Finn
Sure.
Robert Chesnut
And i i think, i you know, of course, it crossed my mind. We had a great general counsel at eBay. His name was Mike Jacobson. And it was very clear Mike wasn't going to leave anytime soon.
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Robert Chesnut
So if I was going to be a general counsel, I knew I'd have to go elsewhere, which is which is great. And Mike and are great friends to this day.
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Robert Chesnut
where We're having lunch this week together. And he taught me a lot. they taught me a lot so But but trust the trust and safety job, yeah sometimes careers aren't a ladder, they're a jungle job. And you they go in different directions. And if you if you have your eyes just fixated on what you see as the next rung of the ladder, you may miss a really cool opportunity
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
Ultimately, what I did in the area of trust and safety got me into you know the executive suite and and gave me training that I never would have had if I had just been a pure lawyer during that period. And it actually advanced my career quite a bit. So, you know, my lesson from all of it is be open minded. Don't don't have don't be fixated on what you think is the career. The next step, be open to different paths, because often the the ah the different path, the side path can actually get you more experience, can diversify your background and ultimately your career more than if you're just slogging it out, waiting for the person ahead of you to retire.
Tyler Finn
Yeah, Mm-hmm. I'm curious if during this timeframe, there were any mentors that you had that were important in helping shape your view around this.um And also, if you know if those were maybe the same mentors you had back when you were in government as a prosecutor, or if you as you moved into the private sector and started to think more about corporate law, if you felt like you had to make new ones, right? It's not to say that that the national security partner at the law firm isn't going to give great advice, but it's probably thinking about things through a slightly different lens maybe than someone who's going to mentor you in the Bay.
Robert Chesnut
I look at the phrase mentor a little differently than most people.
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Robert Chesnut
Mentors for me are, you know, everybody I work with is a mentor in a way, you know, junior even if they may be junior to me, you know, on an org chart.
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Robert Chesnut
ah I'm always curious and trying to learn from everybody that I work with. So um there are, You know, literally hundreds of mentors for me um that in the sense that there are hundreds of people that taught me things I didn't know certainly be a different way to do things or approach a problem that I never would have come up with on my own.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
I mean, they're natural. like you know I mentioned Mike Jacobson as a general counsel. There was Maynard Webb, who was the COO of eBay. Dan Rosen, CEO at Chegg.
Tyler Finn
Ohh
Robert Chesnut
you know A lot of people who were my bosses who taught me a lot, and I'm very grateful to them. But I'm also really grateful to people that worked ah in departments for me in that sense, or people who worked in other departments cross-functionally. You learn from everybody in that sense.
Tyler Finn
And. Yeah.
Robert Chesnut
and And I think if you're not learning if you're not open to learning from a lot of different people, regardless of what their title is, you're missing opportunities.
Tyler Finn
Just an observation, I guess, there. ah I feel like a lot of the, we'll say product people or founders that I've had the chance to work with, um. They've changed my sort of perspective on what it means to lean in and create something from scratch, right? Or outline a vision. I guess I'm curious how maybe some of the CEOs that you've had a chance to work with, a lot of whom are really fantastic product people, um may have evolved your view of what's possible, even as being a GC in terms of building programs or creating new narratives in the industry.
Anything there that's interesting?
Robert Chesnut
I mean, look, I came out of government. ah um worry my on know I I had a lot to learn. So maybe it taught me a ton. For example, I have tremendous respect for her. You know, Dan Rosenzweig at Che. And look, Brian Chesky. What's interesting about Brian Chesky at Airbnb, founder of Airbnb, CEO of Airbnb. You Brian never went to business school. but Brian, I could be wrong.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
I think the Airbnb job founding CEO might it might have been his first real job.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm. Something like that, yeah.
Robert Chesnut
Design school. He went to the Rhode Island School of Design. And what's interesting is, in my observation of Brian, I actually think that that's his strength in that he didn't have a traditional background.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
He viewed problems with an eye with a design So he always would encourage us to imagine or design the ideal solution to a problem. Don't get caught up in how things have always been done or how they are usually done.
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Robert Chesnut
Take a step back and create the ideal vision and try to get there. And so even though I had learned from some other great CEOs and learned a lot of business stuff, I learned with new eyes, I think, when I went to work for Airbnb and for Brian, because he had ah such a different approach to business.
Tyler Finn
Hmm. That's super interesting. um I want to talk more about Airbnb in just just a second. ah But one other question for you about these sort of GC roles broadly. ah How do you know when it's the right time to to move on to the next thing? or Because you've had some amazing jobs and um you've been GC of some amazing businesses. how do you how How have you tried to to think through when it's when it's the right time to do something new or go on to what's next?
Robert Chesnut
I'm a little bit, I'm the kind of person that ah operates, I think, in five-year cycles. But it's different. and and there well they can They can stay in the same place and do you know sort of the same job for 20, 25 years, and that's fine.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Robert Chesnut
What I find is that um usually when I take on a new job, I'm um not qualified for it. um At least half of it, I have no idea what I'm doing.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Robert Chesnut
And then I learn it. And that takes several years. and and But when you get out to around five years of doing something, hopefully by then you've made a mark.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
You've taken your background, your skills, your life experiences, you've imprinted them on that organization and you've had an m impact and hopefully been successful. um But you also don't want to get stale. You want to push yourself again. You want to do you jump into another situation where you feel as though you don't know what you're doing.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
But the growth I think the growth comes from the new challenge. So it wasn't intentional. It wasn't like anybody ever said, yeah there's no book out there called The Five-Year Cycle. I think just for me, I've seen in my career, every five years, I've done something different, whether it was for the Justice Department, even at the same company, at eBay.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
you know I was five years trust and safety, but also five years running North American Legals. um You know, five, six years at Airbnb, five, six years at Chegg. Justice Department, I was a line prosecutor and then became supervised the major crimes unit and did espionage cases, which is completely different. So I just, for whatever reason, it seems to me that it seems to come up in a cyclical way with me in around five years.
Tyler Finn
Maybe that should be the title of your next book.
Robert Chesnut
should like thea the five year The five-year career.
Tyler Finn
Uh, mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
And it's really great. but I'm afraid that it's it's individual to each person.
Tyler Finn
hmm
Robert Chesnut
I think for different people, they they there are different they're different signs or different things in their career that ah they look for when they move on. And it just I think just maybe it's coincidence, but oddly enough, for me, it's just been five cycles.
Tyler Finn
Joining Airbnb, what was that business like when when you joined and and stepped in? and And where was the legal org at? And yeah, where where did you want to take it to?
Robert Chesnut
Well, talk about the legal order. First, legal order was about 20 people when I took over.
Tyler Finn
Okay.
Robert Chesnut
And when I left, it was about 150.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
So I think when I took it over, know, the company was really exploding. And legal function needed to be scaled to to match the scale of the business.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
And it needed to be scaled in a global way.
Tyler Finn
Sure
Robert Chesnut
So, um you know, trying to operate everything out of one building in San Francisco um legally wasn't going to work. it It worked well in the past. It just wasn't going to work for the new era of Airbnb. So, I mean, the but most important thing I did while i was general counsel at Airbnb was I hired so three terrific regional general counsel, one for Asia, one for Europe, and one for yeah so ah Central South America, Mexico. And, and, and, and, If you hire a great leader, then they can you can work together with them to scale out an organization within your region. And so that was, I think, what it was.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
you know There was also there work that needed to be done and in North America and in the u But I think it was, ah there was an exploding amount of legal work. The business was generating not just work, but work that was legal intensive.
Tyler Finn
wohh
Robert Chesnut
And so it was ah it was a scaling job in a lot of which, which I love. I love, again, at eBay, it was, you know, 170 to 15,000. I enjoy the process of taking something that's that's rolling, but needs a legal department that can support the growth, not hold it back.
Tyler Finn
Okay It seems to me that one of the toughest nuts to crack in scaling an org like that is prioritization, like deciding what to focus on and when to focus on it. And especially with a business like Airbnb that was sort of exploding, what can be kicked down the road, like what sort of risks need to be dealt with today?
Tyler Finn
Do you have an approach that you take to that sort of thing? Or is that too cute of a question? Yeah.
Robert Chesnut
it the power and, know. you know which means you do well you know you do all five of them, whatever. yeah um yeah you You may not have the luxury of kicking certain things down the road, or kicking things certain things down the road may make the problem a lot worse.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
So, look, can you yeah, sure, there's prioritization, you ah but you can't you can't... You have to be careful that you don't get caught up in the tyranny of the urgent.
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Robert Chesnut
You know, because...
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
if you're if all you're dealing with is today's problem, um your you're going to miss opportunities to prevent tomorrow's problem.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
So... um it It sounds like a cop-out answer, but i prioritization, yes, but you you don't always have the luxury of being able to put things certain things, some things maybe, but a lot times you can't put these things on the shelf, which may mean you've got to do a number of things at once.
Tyler Finn
I love that phrase, tyranny of the urgent. That's good. I'm going to use that elsewhere. i think there's...
Robert Chesnut
That could be a book, too.
Tyler Finn
like could be...
Robert Chesnut
I've got a book. so but The five-year career and the tyranny of the urgent. This
Tyler Finn
Look at this. It's a brainstorming session. um One more question for you on the on the GC role itself. I don't know. what What are you most proud of having accomplished while you while you were there? If you look back at your tenure as as GC before you became chief ethics officer.
Robert Chesnut
For any leader, it had better be the people. Because if it's about an individual accomplishment of mine, in a sense, it it won't last.
Tyler Finn
Sure.
Robert Chesnut
and and And it starts to dissipate the moment you walk out the door.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
I think the legacy, you know my legacy is the the people that were in that 200 to 150.
Tyler Finn
Ohh
Robert Chesnut
Because each of them, in a way, i either directly or indirectly, played a role in bringing them in, either through interviewing recruiting um myself, but, or laying a a philosophy or a framework for how we were going to operate and therefore the type of person that we wanted to add to the company. So I think it's, and and ah look, a number of those people are still there. And I talked about the region those regional people um had coffee with all of them recently.
Tyler Finn
Sure. Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
They're all still there at the company.
And therefore the, I think the lasting legacy of what I did were the, you know, bringing in really talented people who are passionate about Airbnb.
Tyler Finn
I guess you're not on the interview panels anymore, so it doesn't have to be a secret. or there Are there any yeah signature Rob Chestnut interview questions that you like to ask i that others might be able to steal and and use as they're building out their own legal teams?
Robert Chesnut
um Yeah, that's yeah i would I would never want to answer that question while I was still general counsel because i want to you know you don't want to give any questions.
Tyler Finn
Sure.
Robert Chesnut
um You know, I always like to um like to to ask people to imagine a conference room where um the in the conference room had 20 people in their ah they they key people that worked for you and with you. And your bosses, a blend oh over over the course of your career. And I asked them to imagine the conversation that would go on in the room when I threw your name out.
ah and And I'd say, yeah give me phrases of things that you would hear.
Tyler Finn
No
Robert Chesnut
Not that they're right, but what would they say about what you're really good at? And what would they say about things that you needed to grow and do better? And would there be be arguments in the room between different people?
Tyler Finn
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
And what I found is that it's a version of the question of tell me what you're good at and what you're not good at. But I got more honesty and more reflection by putting it in the third party of people
Tyler Finn
yeah
Robert Chesnut
hearing what other people in in your different organizations would say about you. i got i got interesting candor because what I really wanted, i didn't I didn't want to be sold in an interview because everybody's got all the points, but i want I wanted self-awareness.
Robert Chesnut
I wanted to demonstrate self-awareness and authenticity and candor. I felt like I got more of it when I phrased it in the imaginary conference room set.
Tyler Finn
That's really interesting. ah it It requires introspection. i like that. Yeah.
Robert Chesnut
You almost distract people from trying to sell themselves by forcing them to but get to get their head inside that conference room. And authenticity, that's right.
Tyler Finn
That's cool. um Okay, so, you know, chugging along as GC, maybe you're five years into GC or so at at Airbnb. um Where did the idea for creating a sort of chief ethics officer position come from? And I will say, I think what's unique about the way that you took it over too is... you had You had stature, right, alongside all other members. This isn't like a compliance officer who sits under the GC who runs internal investigations, right? There's a difference, I think.
Robert Chesnut
The roots of it came from Uber and the problems Uber was having far before that.
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Robert Chesnut
If you remember the Susan Fowler blog post, it really tore Uber apart.
Tyler Finn
Sure.
Robert Chesnut
The Me Too movement was starting. And I remember, i you know again, that trying to um get ahead of problems. I went into Brian and talked to Brian about Uber and the Uber. The various issues they had because but Uber, like it or not, Uber and Airbnb were often compared. They were right down the street from each other in San Francisco, um both you know yeah a young founders and started at about the same time.
Tyler Finn
Sure.
Robert Chesnut
And so I looked at it as I like to learn from other people's mistakes. How can we do something so that we don't fall into the same ah trap that Uber fell into? um Because that was a huge, you know, just a ah huge moment for Uber.
Tyler Finn
Sure.
Robert Chesnut
It derailed the company, and they never have completely recovered, I think, from that. And Travis ended up leaving the company as a result. So I went talk to Brian, and Brian and I had the conversation, how do you drive integrity into the culture of a company? It's kind of an interesting question. And again, Brian, Brian's not going to let me get away with um the traditional answers. Like the traditional answer is, well, you have a code of ethics.
Tyler Finn
sure
Robert Chesnut
And when you think about it, well, the code of ethics is something that actually your law firm probably, had on their computer and they put your company name in it and then they sent it over to you and you sent it out to all the employees and asked them to click a button, certifying that they read it, when of course they probably didn't read it.
Tyler Finn
Right
Robert Chesnut
But Somebody comes to you and says, hey, we hit 100%, let's check that box. that's not That doesn't change cultures. So Brian looked at me and said, go go out and go big, which is very bright. So ah I went out and started really thinking about this issue of how you could make integrity part of the culture of a company. And we actually developed an integrity program. Different, not a compliance program.
Tyler Finn
Mmm-hmm
Robert Chesnut
There's a difference between compliance and integrity. Some people mix it up. Compliance is doing something because you've got to do
Tyler Finn
Sure.
Robert Chesnut
But the lawyers tell you have to do it. yeah nobody likes to be told that they've got to do something. and And the fact that lawyers tell them to do it, they look at it as a a chore that they do only because they must. Integrity is doing something because it's the right thing to do, because it aligns with your values. It's far more inspiring.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
So we developed a program to drive integrity out into the culture, to do the right thing because it was the right thing, not because of law requirements.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
And we we tried a number of programs. I based it actually on some science. I went and met with a behavioral psychologist at Duke University and did some reading about it and really thought deeply about this idea. And what shocked because I'm old compared to a lot of people, I'm thinking, well, how are these young people going to look? People loved it. aAnd I got to say, I was i was shocked.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
We did a number of things. we We did an integrity talk as part of orientation. And people, you know, were a little like surprised. There were 25 units as part of orientation of Airbnb. Everybody, every new employee had to go through it. And they did evaluations. So I thought, well, we'll try an orientation section. I'll do it myself. I'll come in and I will teach it. It was 90 minutes.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
But the reviews said. After two months, the or the integrity class and was ranked number one by participants in 25 classes.
Tyler Finn
Wow.
Robert Chesnut
And what it taught me was that people were hungry for this sort of thing.
Tyler Finn
Huh.
Robert Chesnut
People want to work at a place that has values aligned with their own.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
I had one woman come up to me in tears after the integrity talk, literally in tears. I'm thinking, oh my God, what did I do? And she said, Rob, I was just working at X big tech company in the Valley. My boss kept coming on propositioning me.
Tyler Finn
Oh.
Robert Chesnut
And I knew that the company wasn't going to do anything about it if I reported it. I had to leave my job. She said, you have no idea what it means to walk into my new company and to have the general counsel come in and talk about how that sort of behavior was not going to be tolerated.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
And he was available anytime, anytime, day or night. If fill you're experiencing a problem that he wants to know because he's not putting up with it.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
And you know I think people kind of appreciated the fact that, look, we we wanted to stand for something, not just follow the law, but trying to do the right thing. And it resonated with people. um I'll give you another example something we did that was very popular. the
Tyler Finn
Sure.
Robert Chesnut
um my Everybody you know everybody has these compliance videos you you watch, right, on sexual harassment.
Tyler Finn
Yes.
Robert Chesnut
Well, you're smiling. You know what I'm talking about.
Tyler Finn
Unfortunately, yes.
Robert Chesnut
Everybody resents it. Everybody, you know, they ought to.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
So I go home. I'm talking to my kids. And I'm about the problems at work. and My kids are, you know, teenagers. 18, 19. And they look at me and say, a 90-minute video? You're making people watch 90-minute video? We don't watch a video that's longer than five minutes. And that hit me. I'm like, huh. Why do we need 90 minutes to make this point?
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Robert Chesnut
Couldn't we make this point in a much shorter period of time?
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
And then my lawyer told me the story of a video that she watched while she was at a college summer program. And she it was about sexual harassment.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
And she started describing the video to me in detail, animated, five-minute long video. And I went online and looked at And it had humor. It was captivating. And it was fun. I'm like, you know what? If it's stuck with my daughter a year later, younger people want to watch these short videos.
Tyler Finn
Yeah
Robert Chesnut
Now we may still have to do the 90 minute video under the wall, but why do we have stop there?
Tyler Finn
Right
Robert Chesnut
So what we started doing is we started making our own integrity video. One a month, five. Our rule was it had to be under five minutes. And If you're thinking, oh, well, my company doesn't have the production value. so we don't know that Here's my camera that we use.
And the only rule was it had to it had to have humor and it had to be a leader.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Robert Chesnut
Because what I learned about the psychology of this is that leaders are the carriers and integrity is contagious. i So we started doing these videos and people and we and we said, you know what? They're not required. They're not required. Watch it if you want to watch it. Throw it out by email.
Tyler Finn
Yeah
Robert Chesnut
Within six months, two thirds of the company is watching an integrity video voluntarily. Right.
Tyler Finn
Wow
Robert Chesnut
And they were laughing and they were sending in suggestions. They couldn't believe that the general counsel or the head of marketing was doing this, but people were watching it. it was They were paying attention. So I guess my point behind all of this is um it started organically with a challenge to do something creative and different. And it ended, it sort of came to the realization of this is really making a difference in the culture. And so we basically we added the title Chief Ethics Officer to my title ah to reflect the fact that this was so important to the company that a leader is taking it on.
Tyler Finn
That's great. um What a story.
Robert Chesnut
Yeah, and by the way, that led to my book, which...
Tyler Finn
I mean, yeah.
Robert Chesnut
While we're here, the book's called Intentional Integrity. It's about Melon, failable at fine bookstores everywhere. And the book is the story of all the things that we did to drive integrity into the culture and how we really believe that it was didn't cost money. It actually made us a better company and actually, I think, contributed financially to the bottom line.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
And the book tells the story.
Tyler Finn
And I've read the book and it's good. Although I will admit I read it like two years ago after you gave a talk at Fullstack GC, one of the Tech GC conferences on this topic. um
Robert Chesnut
Oh,
Tyler Finn
Let's talk about the book for a second. i When did you decide that you wanted to write it? yeah Was this as you were starting to leave Airbnb? Did you think it would be a great thing to do there? Like, yeah. How how did this come about?
Robert Chesnut
But my wife, my wife wanted me to write a book. And my wife really early or was a ah book agent. That was early. She was actually the book agent for Carlos Santana, Kamala Harris's book, ah new which i mean, a number of you know big league books.
Tyler Finn
Wow.
Robert Chesnut
So she knew the industry. And I started telling her the story of what we were doing Airbnb. She said, no other company's doing this. This is a story that we told.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
I'm like, ya yeah, yeah, yeah. I got a day job. got this general counsel thing that's keeping me up half light as it is. out and But she wouldn't let it go. And she said, I'll get you a writer and I'll get you a major publishing deal if you'll do this. I'm like, yeah, you get me a writer and a major publishing deal and I'll do the book. And of course, months later, we had a writer and a major publishing deal. And I, so I did it while I was general counsel and I did it not really thinking about um anything beyond just getting the book done. I gave the writer every Monday night for a year. And I spent every with the writer doing it.
Tyler Finn
Wow.
Robert Chesnut
And the writer was terrific. She captured my voice really well.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
and And then the problem really came up was that I really love the project and really recognize that it could make a difference.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
And then I also realized that ah publishers don't market books. The author has to do it. So if it was going to do anything, I was going to have to go out, do podcast book tour, do speaking in order to make the book go.
Tyler Finn
Right. Mm hmm.
Robert Chesnut
So the book was either going to die because I was going to go back to my, you know, just be the state being a general counsel or, you know, I've been a lawyer at that point. I've been a lawyer for 30, 35 years.
Tyler Finn
Mm hmm.
Robert Chesnut
And ah been killing I've been killing myself working the long hours, lot of stress. I like to spend a ah little more time with my kids. Why not make the book the next chapter? Because again, I've been doing the Airbnb thing for a little over five years. So why not make the chapter of my life? So that's what I did.
Tyler Finn
Let's talk a little bit. I mean, you you set out in the book sort of a variety of six sort of main themes or steps that companies can take. I guess what i'm what I'm most curious about maybe for my audience is let's say that people don't have an integrity program yet. They're a general counsel. They have a compliance program. What's some low-hanging fruit here? How do people get started? what What might they be able to take away and start doing as soon as next week after they listen to this episode? Yeah.
Robert Chesnut
You know, um the the thing is, it doesn't cost a lot of money.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
ah and So that that's a big barrier. um I think the first thing we started with was a code of ethics. and yeah And I know you've got a code of ethics. I'm like, yeah, you've got a code of ethics. yeah You know, you probably went online and copied it from another company and substituted your company's name in there, right?
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
don't know. So what we did was, i the first thing I did with ethics and integrity was I gave it away. ah I hate to admit it, but people aren't crazy about lawyers are going to talk to lawyers at companies.
Tyler Finn
Sure
Robert Chesnut
And why does the legal department have to own it? um the Everybody should own it. So what we did was we created this program called Ethics Advisors. And the goal was find one person in every group or every office who's senior enough to be respected, thought of as having integrity, but not so senior that they're scared.
Tyler Finn
Mmm-hmm
Robert Chesnut
Went to these people individually and said, we'd like your help in being an integrity officer. And it's something you can add to your you to your professional career. It's volunteer in addition to your job.
Tyler Finn
Yep.
Robert Chesnut
But basically what you will do is you will be a voice in helping us put together an updated code of ethics. And you'll also be a resource for anyone on your team who has a question. um And people saw the benefit of this, felt that it was integrity was something they wanted to add to their brand and they could add it to their resume.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
they volunteer They took on the volunteer job and we worked with the group to help update a code of ethics that was more authentic and in the company's voice.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
And then we announced that they were the ethics they were the the ethics officer for their for their team. And we told the team, if you've got an ethics question, you can use the hotline, you can go to the legal department, you can go to HR, or you can just ask this person right here on your team.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
And what we learned in the next year because we tracked all of this, we got ethics questions and input, you know, and we would track where it came from.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
The number one way that ethics questions came into the company, guess what? It was through these ethics officers. could People were very comfortable to walk over to somebody's desk and ask a casual question.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Robert Chesnut
They weren't quite so eager to become a whistleblower or go to legal.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
So what we found is that we had a lot of good questions and a lot of interesting, we learned a lot of interesting things just by having somebody on the ground in the department that cared about it and thought about it. And Free to do. It was a great group that would we had our own Slack channel.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
And as the general counsel, I oversaw it and coordinated to make sure that we were all providing consistent advice and all aligned.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
But I also learned a lot about ethical issues that were going on inside the company that I wasn't really even aware of.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
I learned what questions were on people's mind. In other words, the more you kind of broaden this and make it something that you get bigger participation in, the more valuable it is.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
So I think that's one element of an integrity program that's relatively easy to do, but can really start to change the culture because it it gets its tentacles out throughout the company.
Tyler Finn
I love that because i think that it's true. People are a little bit scared to call up the general counsel or the AGC for investigations or when they have a question. ah And obviously there are things where there are bright lines where certain behavior is right? Like you have to say to the company, you cannot do this, right? You cannot bribe foreign an official or as one example, right? That being said, ah you want people to buy in and and feel like this isn't a sort of, hunt that's out to get them. it's It's in everyone's interest and it's about building the right culture for the place. um
Robert Chesnut
there's a temptation to think close to Broadway, who's going to know about it?
Tyler Finn
Were there any, i mean, yeah.
Robert Chesnut
Well, probably the person on the team is going to have who's on the ground working with her would have more awareness that this might go on.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Robert Chesnut
And now they understand that they've got a responsibility to speak up. um and and you know be a resource here as opposed to remaining silent in fear with a system that might not happen.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm. I understand if some of it's privileged. I don't know. Was there any category of questions or that came to you that was really surprising to you or you really learned something? I mean, FCPA, I mean, that's sort of like an obvious example or sexual harassment like you've brought up or yeah anything that was surprising in in that.
Robert Chesnut
All these conflicts of interest. if If you're a company, I mean, i've heard people say, well, Rob, I'm glad you did this integrity stuff, but we've got a hotline and we don't get any reports. So I don't think we've got any issues. I'm like, dude, that's the first sign that you've got a problem.
Because there are conflict interest issues, for example, everywhere. And If you aren't getting any questions about conflicts of interest, it's because people don't even recognize that there is a potential conflict of interest. Right? So I would say all kinds of conflicts of interest around gifts, for example, gifts to vendors or vendors giving gifts to you.
Tyler Finn
Sure.
Robert Chesnut
There were, or even romantic relationships. Can you have a romantic relationship with someone you work with? Um, yeah know The answer to that is maybe. Depends on the but your relationship.
Tyler Finn
Depends.
Robert Chesnut
Right so There there are lots of different interesting gray kinds of questions that can come up. um that you know like my My brother-in-law wants a job at the company. I and i Can I recommend him for a job? Can I tell him where to put his resume? Can I be on the interview panel? So you get all different flavors of these things.
Tyler Finn
Right.
Robert Chesnut
But I think um I viewed it as a positive when we had an increase in the number of ethics questions that came in the door.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
I view an absence of such questions to mean that people are not thinking about it and not sensitive to it and or scared to raise it.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm. As you've now sort of like seen people read the book, begin to consult for companies around integrity, do you feel like there's more awareness now than there there was before? And do you feel like GCs care more about this maybe than than they did before? They're not just thinking sort of strictly in a compliance sense, and maybe in the way that they might have been 20 years ago.
Robert Chesnut
I am, the best thing about writing this book, the best thing is you you get the email, the LinkedIn, the phone call from somebody who said, I read your book. Wow, we implemented these three things and it's been so successful.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
I just want you to know how much I appreciate how grateful I made. That's like, okay, it was all worth It's all worth it.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
So I know that the that there are a number of places. And by the way, I get these things from all over the world. Like you get this thing from, I'll get one of these from Argentina or I'll get one from Brussels or I'll get one from Norway. Be like, wow, this is crazy.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
But so I know it's had an impact and and i that that that makes all the work worthwhile. That said, not everybody's read the book. There are a lot of people who are thinking we've got a compliance program so we don't need to do anything else. And my point is your compliance program will be a lot more effective if you layer an integrity program on top of it and it won't cost you any money to do it and it will it will ultimately save you headaches down the line. So I keep talking about it because I think a lot of companies still aren't thinking about this sort of thing and aren't doing it. And I think it's a mistake.
Tyler Finn
Besides reading the book, are there other places that people can find you or sort of your site insights and and content um that you would encourage people to to navigate to?
Robert Chesnut
but I'll show up at my house. That would be creepy. but so You could go to LinkedIn and find me on LinkedIn. There's a website, believe it or not. Intentionalintegrity.com is another good way to find me. But, but yeah look if you know, look, if you like what you hear, go click ah click on me on LinkedIn and connect with me. And I'm happy. i I enjoy jumping on even a quick call and happy to chat with the people who are interested in this because I think it's just it's really important work.
Tyler Finn
And I've read some of your articles in Bloomberg Law as well. I've enjoyed some of those because I think you bring you bring sort of cases that are in the news or in the media and then put them in this lens of of and or view them through this lens of integrity, right? Like what might have been done differently? Yeah.
Robert Chesnut
Put It's almost like putting on integrity glasses and looking at it in a way.
Tyler Finn
Yeah.
Robert Chesnut
And yeah, I read a column called Good Counsel for Bloomberg. I think it's even outside the paywall. They they should make you pay for this stuff, but they but I think it's free. You can You can also check out check out my articles there.
Tyler Finn
So a few fun questions for you, Rob, as we we start to wrap up that I like to ask my guests. I mean, your day-to-day is a little bit different now than it once was when you were a GC, but your favorite part of your day-to-day?
Robert Chesnut
Well, my daughter's an actress, and so there are times where she has me read lines. ah she I help her read lines for auditions. um My son's a senior on um the high school golf team, so going out and playing nine holes of of golf with my son at the end of the day. So those are two things I didn't get a chance to do ah very much at all before when it was crazy.
Tyler Finn
And see
Robert Chesnut
So those are my favorite parts of the right now.
Tyler Finn
Those are great. um I think this one's kind of funny. If you have a professional pet peeve, what is it?
Robert Chesnut
Professional pet peeve. oh Let's see. I think it's, um I don't know, think maybe it's people who aren't, lack self-awareness. People who don't, who take who take constructive feedback negatively.
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Robert Chesnut
people who fight you on it. Because I think feedback is a gift.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
And when you get feedback about your work that that is less than 100% complimentary, it is actually the only way you're going to get better.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
If the only feedback you ever get is is how fabulous you are, you'll never get better. And it's not true because everybody's got things they can work on. So a pet peeve is somebody who fights you on it. And so you know my response is, the more you fight me, the more uncomfortable you make it for me to give you feedback like this, which means you're going to get less of it, which means you're going suffer.
Tyler Finn
Right.
Robert Chesnut
And even if you disagree with it, which is totally fine, um what you ought to be asking is, why does Rob see this?
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
It's not what I think is accurate, but clearly Rob's seeing it.
Tyler Finn
Right
Robert Chesnut
So to ask the question of why what I do is giving off this vibe or giving off this ah misconception.
So my pet peeve is people who fight it instead of explore it because I think ultimately we all lose when that happens.
Tyler Finn
That's interesting. I like that answer. That's good. ah Okay. Besides your own, if you have a book recommendation for our audience, it doesn't have to be a business book. It could just be something fun, but whatever you've got.
Robert Chesnut
There's so many great ones. Anything by Adam Grant. If you can go read Adam Grant's Give and Take, you'll think again, for example, a wonderful book.
Tyler Finn
Yeah. Yes.
Robert Chesnut
um There's a book called The Culture Code by Daniel Coyle that's really wonderful if you're thinking about how to build a culture inside of a company um that that that gets the most out of people.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
I've got... ah got. There's a great book on career. um if you're thinking about your career, if you're feeling a little lost in life and you're trying to think about you know what what should you do next, there's a book called Ikigai, I-K-I-G-A-I. It's a Japanese concept around your purpose in life that I think really helps provide a framework for thinking about what you would like to do.
Tyler Finn
Hmm.
Robert Chesnut
Hold on, I'll get you two more. I'm looking at my bookshelf for those of you that same There's a book called Multipliers. It's by Liz Wiseman. And it's about this idea of as a leader, you're either getting a fraction of someone's abilities or you are actually making them even better, greater than they thought they could be.
Tyler Finn
Oh. Hmm.
Robert Chesnut
Walt Whitman for me pushed me and challenged me to do things I didn't think I could do. So she was a multiplier. um But there are a number of leaders who I think don't get the most out of their people. And Liz Wiseman's book Multipliers is, I think, an outstanding book to to help you become a better leader.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
um And the last one I'll pick is Matthew Syed, S-Y-E-D, a book called re ah Rebel Ideas. So... um a really great thinker about in today's world where diversity, equity, inclusion has sort of become a bad phrase.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
What does diversity mean? And and and the how how can it be? um i think there's actually not that much difference between diversity. Hiring with a diversity in mind and hiring with excellence and merit in mind. I actually think the two concepts are are in many ways synonymous. So his work will help you think in that regard.
Tyler Finn
You've given me enough books take like all my work flights between now and the end of the summer. This is fantastic.
Robert Chesnut
It will be too. It will
Tyler Finn
Uh, last question for you, Rob, my, my traditional closing question for my guests. It's if you could look back on your days being a young lawyer, just getting started, maybe at the department of justice, something that you know, now that you wish that you'd known back then.
Robert Chesnut
Well, I think ill I'll just reiterate an earlier point that it's very hard to map out where you think your ah great career will be. If you do that, if you think, oh, I want to X job one day. You may miss a lot of fascinating things along the way. You know, a career is like a long ah long journey with a lot of side paths. And you you you just don't know what opportunities are going to come your way. But, but um I was a little shy, I think, and a little, I was an only child, a little introverted. And that will kill you in life if if you if you that dominate. So I think a key is ah get out there.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
Try things. Be curious. um If, you know, if you're, If you're watching a lot of, um if you're binge watching a lot of television shows, you're spending a lot of time watching television and the like, maybe you need some of that to unwind. But I would suggest getting out, meeting people, exposing yourself to new ideas, ah take up a new hobby.
Tyler Finn
Mm-hmm.
Robert Chesnut
You never know when a new hobby or is going to lead in an interesting direction. or when you go to a seminar and you meet a particular person or hear a concept of where that's going to take you. So be open to different things on your journey and get out and and b act to be an active engager with the world.
Tyler Finn
I love that. Great, great answer. um And especially the first part of that, really one of the main themes of this podcast. ah There's no one right path in in the law or legal adjacent roles in the profession. um And you can have really meaningful careers full of twists and turns, just like you've had. Thank you, Rob. Thank you so much for joining me today for this episode of The Abstract. This has been a lot of fun for me.
Robert Chesnut
Well, I had a great time. Thanks for an interesting conversation, Tyler.
Tyler Finn
And thank you to all of our listeners. And we hope to see you next time.
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